What If You're Rolling Dirty And Have To Defend Yourself With A Gun John's Briefs by John Corriea
John:
Hi everyone. Welcome to Active Self Protection Extra here today on John's briefs with attorney extraordinaire, Tim Forche. This guy teaches probably more CCW students than anybody in our state. You are definitely prolific at
Tim:
That. It drives my wife crazy. Every time we're out to dinner and somebody comes up and goes, weird question, but were you my CW instructor so many years? Oh my God, drives, I laugh.
John:
I love it. And so Tim is not just an attorney, but a real legit firearms instructor and an Arizona ranger. And so judge, former judge, pro tem, former prosecutor, he's a real, been there, done that. And one of the things I love about Tim is not, again, not just a great criminal defense attorney, not just knowledgeable about firearms, but actually instructs in legal use of force and knows this area.
Tim:
And I'm shooting a match Sunday. I also shoot a
John:
Competitive shooter.
Tim:
I've gone downhill. I've gotten older, but I'm still active in it. So
John:
Yeah. So again, this is a rarity, a unicorn over here. And we had a video not long ago on the channel. It was a disaster. It's a bunch of guys coming out of a club in Mexico and having a crazy gunfight.
Tim:
Wait, this was Mexico?
John:
I thought it was
Tim:
France. I was so confused about
John:
That. Mexico.
Tim:
Yeah,
John:
Mexico.
Tim:
Everybody's shooting everybody.
John:
Yeah, everybody's shooting everybody. And I'm sure there's some cartel connections here and all that stuff.
Tim:
One would thing.
John:
But it made me think about a similar scenario that maybe many people in the US would deal with, and I want to ask him about it. To win the fight after the fight, you need help after a use of force. I trust firearms legal protection to help me win the fight for the rest of my life. From their 24 7 attorney answered hotline to coverage for the use of all legal tools, firearms, legal protection has you covered, get a discount by signing up at the link below. So if you've watched the video, no good people in that video. Somebody's lighting up desk pops and then having a fist fight, and then somebody else shows up and kills everybody and everybody runs off. Wait, what? The crap just happened? Oh my God. But I can think about, I see here in Arizona, here in Arizona, you can carry in a bar as long as they're not posted according to a RS four dash 2 29 4
Tim:
Things have to be true. You have to have a CCW permit. The gun must be concealed. Your blood alcohol content must be 0.00. Same as Boar's GPAI always say. And then last but not least, there can't be a murder sign placed on the establishments door, what a lot of people call it, no firearms allowed sign. I call 'em murder signs. If those four things are true, it's legal to carry in a barn in Arizona. Yes.
John:
And that sign, actually, as I understand it, the sign has to be next to their liquor license.
Tim:
My understanding is both there has to be one within 20 feet of the liquor license and the exterior
John:
Door. And the door. Correct. So if all that's there, then you can, but let's say, I'm not saying I know people who would do this. I'm not saying this because of course, I would never encourage you to break the law.
Tim:
Right. And we mean that too. We're not being,
John:
I mean, even if I did believe you should break the law, I certainly would never tell you that in a public place I'd be stupid. Right? Nobody's watching this, are they? Yeah. I'm not that dumb, but I'm not telling you to do that. But I do know people, let's say that we all break, we all choose laws that we're going to follow. We've all driven 56 and a
Tim:
John:
How's that? Okay, so there are some that are and some that ain't right. And I certainly would never admit that in a public place, but I also don't have a completely clean driving record so that there's obviously, I've had some citations for excessive speed in my life. Welcome to the world time or two. And I imagine somebody might carry into one of those establishments, not going to be drinking or anything like that, but they don't want to leave a gun in the car. They didn't know it was coming. They're just sitting there enjoying an iced tea.
Tim:
Yeah. I'll tongue you, chica aside, guys, if you're going to do this, if you're going to drive 56 and 55, don't be drinking. Okay? Because the law is never ever going to smile on you Now no matter what, and B, your judgment is the very first thing to go out the window when you consume
John:
Alcohol
Tim:
And judgment is maybe the most important thing with regard to self-defense. So those two don't mix. Well, okay? If you're going to the party club, you're going to the
John:
Club.
Tim:
Nope.
John:
I'd recommend not
Tim:
Because there's too much, and now we're speaking to all of you NFL players, by the way.
John:
There's too much. And the fact is, will people like, well, yeah, but that's a dangerous place. Why are you going?
Tim:
You don't go. Yeah,
John:
Why are you going? Because God is not
Tim:
Telling you to bring your gun. God's telling you not to go.
John:
Yeah. Well, that's where all the honeys are at. They're not the ones you want. Amen. Get away from that trash man. Go find a good girl at church man. Or at a cooking class or something like at the gym, man. The dog park. The dog park, not at the club. Anyway, you carried past that sign and you're like, well, I'm not going to drink. I'm a good person. I'm going to sit and have a meal. Maybe it's a restaurant and they serve alcohol, whatever. And something pops off and you go, oh, no. An armed robber shows up and now, oh, am I going to shoot this guy because he's going to threaten my family in this armed robbery, but now I'm going to get hemmed up for carrying where I shouldn't. Big worry. You think?
Tim:
Yeah. It's something you better think about. Yes. But I get asked this question in my class. Of course, I don't get questions from clients because the time's passed, but in my class, I get questions all the time. A lot of times people say just this exact question, what if I'm carrying someplace I'm not supposed to be carrying? And a guy with an AR 15 starts murdering people in front of me, and he's standing right in front of me and I've got a clear shot at the back of his head and I decide to shoot what happens to me? My response is, and I don't mean to be glib or flip when I say this guys, but my response is, who cares? Who cares? You might get charged with a class one misdemeanor, but you saved your own life and you saved the lives of countless other people, and you did the right thing.
Tim:
The world thing. I don't care if I've got a clean criminal record and I get charged with a class one misdemeanor for criminal trespass or a liquor code violation. If it's a bar, I might get fined $272. I spent that on. And ammunition what we, I mean, I just don't get, people get really wrapped around the wheel on that, and I just don't understand why we're worried about that. There's way bigger worries. Are you alive? Are other people alive? Are you dead? Are other people dead? To me, that's the only thing that really matters here. This inconsequential misdemeanor potential prosecution is really, really low on my radar, and I hope it's low on yours. And I don't say that again, to dismiss the question or to make light of the consideration. I just think we got to keep it in perspective a little
John:
Bit. And again, if nothing happens, and as long as you're not a moron and your gun gets discovered, correct, then you're probably not going to have a problem. And again, at the worst, it's a class one misdemeanor. I've never seen anybody even jammed up for carrying in a bar like that. If they get caught.
Tim:
I've seen it happen where they're drunk and they're belligerent and they don't leave when they're asked to, which they don't. You don't need that. In theory, under the liquor code, you can be prosecuted for merely being present under the class one misdemeanor trespass code you without, you have to refuse to leave. But here they can nab you. But I've never seen it happen where there wasn't belligerence and drunkenness and stupidity accompanying that.
John:
That's what I mean, right?
Tim:
Oh my gosh, I didn't see the sign. I'm so sorry. I'm leaving now. Well, who wants to call the cops? If you're polite and you leave, nobody's going to do that.
John:
Well, and even if they do, call the cops, cops show up and go, Hey, man, you're not supposed to carry a gun in there. And you go,
Tim:
And you said, I didn't know I'm leaving now. So, so sorry. And they don't smell alcohol on you, and you're polite and respectful,
John:
Done. Have a nice day. Not really a big concern. Also, if you end up saving the day and saving a bunch of lives, I mean, yes, you're going to hire an attorney, but because you just took a life and we got to do something with the body, and so all that's going to happen. I would say that if you use deadly force and somebody's like, well, but do I really need an attorney? So that guy, assuming room temperature there says you need an
Tim:
Attorney. There's a guy that I know well, who I consider to be a friend who's very prolific in this area, and he's a very big advocate of, if my call to the police can be used against me, which it can, then I'm not going to call the police. And he has what he calls the reverse Miranda, and I'm sure you know who I'm talking about. He has the reverse Miranda concept, and I'm always like, so how long are we going to let the body rot in your living room before we do something about it? Dude, I mean, that's not a viable response. You just can't, this is not in this day and age. So yeah,
John:
I would let someone else call the police if
Tim:
You can,
John:
At your direction. Hey, you call 9 1 1 and tell me
Tim:
Help. And don't ever say somebody, call 9 1 1. Then everybody's going to stand there and look at you. Say you call 9 1 1. You go over there and watch the door and Yeah, exactly right.
John:
I'm going to be on my phone with my attorney. Exactly. Tim, here's where I am. I need help now. Got there. I need help right now. I need you to get and put
Tim:
Some pants on, friend. And if you don't have a lawyer that'll do that, get
John:
One.
Tim:
Right, because they're out there.
John:
Well, and again, if you're a member of firearms legal protection, you call that 800 number, and guess what? The attorney picks up the line over there, then they wake me up and then they wake Tim up, and then Tim shows up. I can just short circuit that and we'll let them know a little
Tim:
Later. We'll get them the bill. But yeah, let's short circuit the process.
John:
So I wouldn't worry about this too much. This is not the thing to worry about. I can tell a whole story about having an interaction with Phoenix PD after going to the NBA finals and them going, wait a minute, did John have a gun there? I never said I had a gun in your facility. I never said that as far as anybody's aware, I didn't have a gun in that facility, and I wouldn't recommend breaking the law. It's not what I would say to do. The laws are there for a reason. Right? And I don't mind being unarmed in the arena. It's because again, everyone went through metal detectors.
Tim:
If everybody goes through a metal detector, that lowers
John:
My temperature quite a bit. Yeah. I actually really like what we have in Arizona in the court system is that, listen, if you want to prohibit firearms, and they do in the courts, and I totally get that. They got lockers on the walls and you could show up and go, I have a firearm to
Tim:
Check. And they have to. I like that we have that. But in practice, that's been problematic as well because now I have to surrender my loaded firearm to some guy who I do not know, who I don't know, what level of training they have, what level of education they have, whether they follow the three rules or the four rules or the zero rules. Is the locker actually secured? Did you turn the key? Did you not turn the key? Did you just throw it in the locker with somebody else's Glock? Did you scratch it up, blah, blah? To me, being armed between the parking lot and the front door of the courthouse is not worth the risk of turning my gun over to a stranger and hoping for the best. So I'm glad we have that, but I don't choose to avail myself of
John:
That. So my experience with it has always been I take the firearm off and put it in the
Tim:
Lockbox if that's available, that's different. That's
John:
Where every courtroom, every courthouse I've been into here in the state
Tim:
Had that. And right after I moved to Arizona, I went to a very, very rural bar, way down by Gila Bend on a horseback ride. And we all walked in armed, and the guy said, fell. And this is one of the best moments in my entire life. The bartender walked over and says, boys, I'm going to have to ask you to check your guns. And I thought, this is why I moved to Arizona. This is so cool.
John:
It's
Tim:
An interesting
John:
One. There you go. So I wouldn't worry about the class one misdemeanor. It's not going to do anything too. Okay. Now, your state laws may differ. I do know in places like if you cross the border into New Mexico and you go past that no gun sign, that's a felony in New Mexico. So I want you to check your state laws. Yeah, I know your state laws, and you say this again, your state specific laws. Check with an attorney who specializes in self-defense and criminal law in your
Tim:
State. Don't just read 'em yourself or read what the internet says about 'em. Not a good idea. Sit down, spend 300 bucks, spend 500 bucks, sit down with an attorney, spend an hour
John:
Or trust a YouTuber.
Tim:
Yeah.
John:
Says the YouTuber,
Tim:
With our exception.
John:
Yeah. I mean, listen, we try really hard to put out good information here,
John:
But in generalities. But I always recognize, and I go, listen man, I'm not telling you exactly how that applies to you in Massachusetts. I'd have to study the statutes in Massachusetts, and I'm a court admitted expert in the use of force and self-defense firearms. So I could do that, but I haven't, and I don't want you to depend on me for that. And you go, well, John, can I just email you and ask you for my statute? Sure. I charge 500 bucks an hour for that. So you may as well just call an attorney in your town and a good criminal defense attorney. So don't worry so much about the lower level
Tim:
Stuff. To me, the biggest worry here is like we've talked about before, whether to or not to jump into the water. I mean, again, you're witnessing this happening. Do you really know what's going on? Is that the guy that you see shooting people? Is that a SWAT officer who just shot three terrorists? Do you really know what's going on? I mean, just because you see a guy with a gun doesn't mean you jump in and start shooting at him. So to me, that's maybe the bigger consideration here is that you need to be educated about this stuff, but you also need to train, train, train, know about situational awareness, know about judgmental shooting. You don't just wait into this and pull a gun because great way for innocent people to die. So be
John:
Aware of that. I will also say the only example that I know of this issue, Indiana, in the big deal, is Eli Dickens in Indiana. Right? Carried it past the no gun sign into the mall. Thank God, thank God, thank God he carried past the no gun sign
Tim:
Where two people died in that incident. Well, three, including the bad guy,
John:
Including
Tim:
The perp. So those God rest those two people of two minutes, but it could have been 22. And there was a politician who screamed and hollered that he should be charged under that. Yep. He's just as much of a criminal as the guy he shot. All you people are lauding him. He broke the law, carried a gun into that mall. He should go to jail. Wow.
John:
And thankfully, the vast majority of Americans who are good saints, sober, moral, prudent people, even if they're not gun folk, even if they're not Second Amendment folk, they go, no, no, that's stupid.
Tim:
They value
John:
Life. He did a good thing. And we're not going to charge him. We're going to give him the keys to the city. And I will also say, I don't know that he watches any stuff in the gunther net. I know that Eli has, he didn't want to do any interviews. He wanted to just go back to his life. I think that is laudable and right and good. He
Tim:
Hasn't tried to capitalize on it or market stuff.
John:
Smart. I think. God bless you, sir, and God bless you for doing what you did. Amen. And for being ready for that and for showing us all that it is, as we say, the Indian and not the arrow for using his Glock 19 with a janky front site at 40 yards,
Tim:
Eight hits out of 10 shots
John:
From
Tim:
40 yards away. Well,
John:
40 yards. And in, apparently he took some at 40 and walked it in
Tim:
And
John:
Good for him on the good. Still just an absolute hero. May God bless you, sir, and young man, if ever I can buy you lunch and pick your brain and see how life is going for you. I would love to. So anyways, just like Eli, don't worry about that so much. Be a smart person. Only step in when you got to. And the protecting of life is going to probably cover your behind,
Tim:
And that's the most important thing.
John:
There you go.
Tim:
So
John:
Thanks for the knowledge, Tim. Always,
Tim:
Always, buddy. You bet.
Credit: John Corriea, Active Self Protection