by Christian Warrior Training and Washington Gun Law
Keith Graves:
Welcome to Christian Warrior Training. I got William Kirk from the Washington Gun Law. It's awesome to have you. Thanks for having me. It's a little bit of a fanboy. We've been following you for a long time, since you said since you had the long hair
William Kirk:
Dude. So yeah, if you were following me back with the long hair, that was back when I had 10 subscribers, so thanks for that brother.
Keith Graves:
Oh yeah. If you're not following Washington Gunlock, you absolutely should. Even if you don't live in Washington. Great information, man. Thanks, man. I mean, phenomenal stuff. I follow you for the Information Church though. We were talking, were at Right to Bear at their booth at Shot show. We both recommend Right to Bear, so if both of us are recommending it, there's something there, right? Something
William Kirk:
There. Yeah.
Keith Graves:
We came across each other at the booth and I'm like, man, let's do an interview. Let's talk about church stuff. Let's talk about law and church stuff.
William Kirk:
And
Keith Graves:
The biggest question I get from my guys, and I answer the best I can, but they need to hear it from a lawyer. And what's funny, this is great. This is the first time I'm talking to a lawyer at a table like this in this setting
William Kirk:
And it doesn't cost you anything.
Keith Graves:
It didn't cost me anything. I'm not in trouble for all the cops that are following. I don't have internal affairs over there. Nope.
William Kirk:
No's one here.
Keith Graves:
This is the weirdest feeling ever, man. Alright, so the biggest question I get from these guys, I have a gun at church. I'm there to protect so much stuff. Crazy stuff's going on. I am worried about insurance liability. My church covers me. Is that good enough?
William Kirk:
Have
Keith Graves:
At it, man.
William Kirk:
Yeah, well, so it's a very loaded equation, but the bottom line is this, is that the analogy I use, especially if you're an everyday carrier, and the analogy I use is being an everyday carrier is being out in the middle of the ocean and you need to have a life fest. And while I believe very strongly that right to Bear makes the best life fest, there are people who think other products are better and they may or may not be right. But what I need is I need everyone to have a life vest thought, okay? And what people are doing church security need to understand is that I know your church is going to say they're going to protect you and they certainly want to, but most churches don't have really deep pockets. These things can become incredibly cost prohibitive. And there's a possibility that as much as the church may want to help you, they may not have the financial means to do so. They will also oftentimes say, well, we're going to cover you, but they will think we're going to cover 'em when it's just obvious to everybody that this was lawful pull of the trigger.
William Kirk:
Unfortunately, if it was that clear, there wouldn't be guys like me. We wouldn't have jobs because once we get these things in the courtrooms and the emotion gets involved and the facts start getting clouded, you never know. And I've seen people that I thought had a very good legitimate self-defense claim. Some other evidence comes out and then you've seen their insurance carrier or whoever's covering 'em just basically say, well, we're out. We're out. And that's like the life vest that just decides, well, it's just going to come off of you when you're floating in the middle of the ocean. And that's the thing that people need to understand about insurance coverage in general when it comes to self-defense situations is insurance coverage usually covers you for negligent acts. You screw up and do something, you have an accidental discharge or something like that. That's what insurance normally covers you.
William Kirk:
When you intentionally engage with an attacker and you intentionally pull a trigger or you intentionally use force, that is by definition an intentional act, which means your insurance policies are not covering you. Your typical insurance policies are not covering you at all. Which means, so when the church is saying, Hey, we're going to cover you. They may have a big umbrella policy where if you accidentally drop hot water on somebody in a negligent act, you're covered. But what happens when you engage in that intentional, I intentionally shot that person might be a complete lawful justification for it, but the act upon what you're being sued over is an intentional act. And that's where insurance companies get really skittish about stuff. Yeah,
Keith Graves:
Yeah, absolutely. So we recommend, I think we both have said the same thing. I've been in this position before where I'm in trouble and the city goes, oh, we're going to being a police officer. Oh, we'll provide you with an attorney. Awesome. You're looking out for the interest of the city, not me.
William Kirk:
Right?
Keith Graves:
And so I like,
William Kirk:
It's like when you get in a car accident and the insurance company tells you we're going to get you an attorney. That attorney's looking out for the insurance company. They're not looking out for the insured.
Keith Graves:
Exactly. So my attorney was Mike Rains, I would call Mike Rains up if you're in law enforcement, California. If you're in California and you need an attorney for self-defense. Mike. Mike Guy, Mike Rains at Rains, Lucia over there in Pleasant Hill, he represents all the cops and all the good stuff.
William Kirk:
He's got to be doing something right if they're all going to
Keith Graves:
Him. Oh, exactly. And go find that attorney if you're in Washington, there's a guy hopefully Idaho pretty soon.
William Kirk:
Yeah. The way watching it is going, you all may turn on YouTube pretty soon to see the channels called Idaho Gun Law. Yeah,
Keith Graves:
That would be wonderful. I would love that. Then I have a new attorney to go
William Kirk:
To, right? There you go. There you go.
Keith Graves:
And Mike Rains would come in, we'd sit just like this and the city attorney would be over there, but Mike Rains has my back, or William Kirk has my back, or whoever. I feel comfortable having you here because I know you're looking out for me and I feel good and I know that there's somebody fighting for me. And I
William Kirk:
Lemme explain something else to the viewers. If you're the attorney on the other side and suddenly you realize, wow, this person has a very competent attorney representing them, you may get a little bit less aggressive with that. See prosecutors, and I'm a former prosecutor so I can say this, they all brag about their winning percentage. I won 98% of the cases I retired. Well, you should have. You picked who you fought. Every boxer would be undefeated if it weren't for those damn promoters that make you fight someone else. That's really good. So if you have competent counsel, have I seen cases where I got involved in and because I have a reputation and I've been in the trenches and stuff like that, where all of a sudden the prosecuting takes a different attitude towards the case just because of the presence of an attorney.
Keith Graves:
Yes.
William Kirk:
That can make a big difference. So the guy you're working with down in California, I'm sure he is famous and or notorious in that state as the guy. So I can assure you, when those attorneys on the other side saw his notice of appear, they were like, oh god, man, what are we going to do here? Now we got our hands full. Yeah, you're right. I think you probably noticed the change in atmosphere the minute he got on board.
Keith Graves:
Hey, correct me if I'm wrong, I think right to bear, you get to pick your own attorney.
William Kirk:
You do.
Keith Graves:
You do. And that's huge because if you're in Washington and you're involved in a self-defense shooting, I'm calling you.
William Kirk:
Right? Right.
Keith Graves:
And now I feel good. I got to pick him right to bear Bears paying the bill and I'm good to go. Why would I
William Kirk:
Not? Well, here's the other important part. Take Washington, for example, I'll use my home state and your state's no different is I'm a King County Seattle lawyer. Now if I got a shooting over in Spokane County, I don't know if the best thing for a Spokane resident is to bring over the big time city a lawyer because you can get a little bit of hometown cooking. But with the way to Bears program is set up is great. I'm going to get you set up with the best guy in Spokane, the one that's been practicing for 30 years, knows every clerk, knows every judge, knows every prosecutor, the one that can navigate that minefield. Because even though that attorney may not have as well known name, they're going to be more effective at representing you. And ultimately it's the result that matters. Right? And so with right to Bear of what they typically do, your state, there's a big difference between Northern Idaho and those that live in Boise. And if you, you're an attorney that practices in Coeur d'Alene all the time, and you go down to Boise, they might be like, what are you doing down here? And you don't,
Keith Graves:
Boise sure ain't going to go up to Coeur d'Alene.
William Kirk:
Boise doesn't want to go up there. So I was with another carrier that will remain nameless, but there was a attorney for that state. Now if you're in Rhode Island, that works pretty good, probably California. Think about that. Northern California and Southern California are separate countries.
Keith Graves:
I was a cop in Northern California.
William Kirk:
So you know the drill. And that's a big state. That is a huge deal. 58 counties, I believe in the state of
Keith Graves:
40 million people know that. Good
William Kirk:
Job dude. Like that. Yeah,
Keith Graves:
It's
William Kirk:
Funny. It's full of worthless information. Don't blame me in Trivial Pursuit, I'll kill you.
Keith Graves:
I know everything about every communist state ever.
William Kirk:
Yeah, except here's the other thing you need to know. They're all getting worse.
Keith Graves:
They are. Absolutely. Absolutely. And let's rule into you shot somebody and it's fresh,
William Kirk:
Cops
Keith Graves:
Just got there.
William Kirk:
Well, let's go back before the cops even get there. So I actually have traveled around the country and spoken on this because I don't believe that this is unique to any particular state. And what I want your viewers to understand is what happens in the minutes immediately following you shooting someone, not only is going to make the difference between whether or not you have a defense could actually make the difference whether or not you live or die. And so you want me to kind of go through what I advise people to do?
Keith Graves:
Absolutely all they voted for me, but I think it's good to hear from a lawyer too. Hearing for me as a cop, I'll show up and I'm like, I honestly have told people before, dude, before everybody gets here. Shut up.
William Kirk:
Shut up.
Keith Graves:
Here's Mike Rees's phone number. Yeah,
William Kirk:
Give him a call. Because as former law enforcement, and I've heard this from many other law enforcement officers, they will tell you that every person I successfully prosecuted was either because I saw 'em commit the crime, somebody else saw 'em commit the crime, or they admitted to me they did. Right?
Keith Graves:
And
William Kirk:
So let's take one of those three off the table right away. And I like doing this with law enforcement because the first thing I want everyone to understand is this, is that even though we hold law enforcement to an incredibly high standard, and I don't have a problem with that, we sometimes fail to remember that they're human beings like the rest of us. Absolutely. Which means when they go to work, just like all of you, when you go to work, all you want to do is come home to your family at the end of the night. That's all you want.
William Kirk:
And so when that call comes out, Hey, we got a shooting in progress, what do you suppose the emotional state is of every single officer when they get to that scene? Even the ones that have been doing this for this, been doing it for 30 years. You don't know what you're getting yourself into. Is this an active, is this my last day on the job? What's going to happen? And so as the person who has now pulled the trigger, you need to be aware that they are going to be arriving very hot and in a very heightened emotional state, and they are looking to preserve their own life, which they absolutely have the right to do. So what you do in those minutes when they first have contact with you could mean the difference between life and death as well as having a defense. But the hypothetical I always use is this, the hypothetical we'll operate on today is you have been encountered with a person who placed you in imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
William Kirk:
There's no doubt about it. You had absolute right to use lethal force. You have pulled the trigger and the threat now has been stopped. The gun is still warm in your hand and smoking. What do we do then? Right? That's where we're at. Okay, the first thing we got to do is we got to assess the situation to see can we remain at that scene or do we have to go somewhere else? I prefer that you remain at that particular scene. But I had a case recently, a couple years ago down in Tacoma, shooting took place outside of the nightclub. Shots that were fired were very lawful. The problem is the victim's friends all started piling out of the club and they weren't too happy to see their friend leaking out there on the sidewalk. And so had my guy remained at the scene, we might've had more violence.
William Kirk:
So he was able to extract himself. And then when I say extract yourself, I don't mean go to Mexico. Okay? Alright. What I do mean is a couple blocks down the road or things like that. The second thing, always with the firearm, but the firearm back in the holster in the exact condition it was at the time of the last discharge, do not touch shell casings. Do not do any of that. Don't worry about trying to figure out how many shots you fired. You're going to get the number wrong anyways. You know that from law enforcement interview. Yep. They'll figure it out. Okay? It's simple math. They can figure it out. The next thing you got to do is you got to call 9 1 1 and you got to call 9 1 1 for one very simple reason. Under my hypothetical, you've been placed an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury.
William Kirk:
You're calling 9 1 1 to report that you have been the victim of a crime because you have been the victim of a crime. A crime so serious that you were lawfully allowed to use lethal force if medical attention is needed. Because under the hypothetical that we're operating on, I said the threat was stopped. I didn't say the threat was dead. Okay? Does it help me from a defense attorney standpoint, if my client's screaming to 9 1 1, please get an ambulance here, please get an ambulance here. Kind of takes away that whole argument of he was looking for
Keith Graves:
Trouble,
William Kirk:
Which sometimes that's the game that prosecutors will use. 9 1 1, operators are trained to keep you on the phone for as long as humanly possible. They get as much information as possible. Everyone thinks that they assist the prosecution, that they're designed to assist prosecution. That's not what they're there for. It's the subject that actually ends up assisting the prosecution by what they say. What they're really trying to do is gather as much information as possible to get it to law enforcement so that when they get there, they can take control of the scene as fast and humanly possible and make everyone safe. Here's the other thing that a lot of people need to understand about the type of information that may get reported to 9 1 1. You and I are having a heated political discussion and at some point I say, you're an idiot and I pull a knife out.
William Kirk:
And so you take a couple of steps back, oh, you're a Biden supporter and you run a couple of rounds through me, okay? Which not under that hypothetical, you have the right to do. Everyone else that's standing around didn't know that was going on until they hear boom boom and they turn and they see you shooting me. So now they grab their phones and what do they describe you as? You're the bad dude. I'm the poor victim when in reality I'm the bad dude. You've been the victim. But that's not the information that 9 1 1 is getting. So it's entirely possible that when law enforcement gets there, they're operating under a belief system that may be inaccurate. The problem is what you're going to want to do when it's a righteous shot is you're going to want to start selling that story right now. I want to sell the righteousness of what I did. Well, let me ask you this. If you were involved in a department shooting, you were on duty. You could have 10 colleagues there, all like, dude, that was the most righteous shot ever taken. How many days before you talked to your department? Oh, it's going to be 24 hours minimum
Keith Graves:
If you're in a good department, yeah, you're looking at 24 to 72
William Kirk:
Hours. And a lot of times that's collectively bargained into the agreement sometimes. Yeah. So now think about this. If a trained law enforcement officer who might have 10 incredibly credible witnesses saying, oh, this was a righteous thing, and they're not going to talk to the department for anywhere from 24 to 72 hours later, why the hell would you do that? And these are people who are trained now, anyone who's ever been involved in a little tiny fender bender accident, you get out of the car. So can you imagine what your emotional state is when you've just shot something? It's horrible and you talk to people that have done
Keith Graves:
It. Nobody wants to shoot anybody.
William Kirk:
Nobody does.
Keith Graves:
And you feel horrible. They have guilt and because they're a good person, they want to express that I'm a good person.
William Kirk:
I'm a good person,
Keith Graves:
I'm a good person. I don't shoot people.
William Kirk:
I don't shoot people. I have the right to do this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they want to start selling the story right away. And prosecutors are very good. And you can give them 99 things that sound good and they'll take that one thing that doesn't sound good, and that's the molehill that they're going to build the mountain out of if they want to get you. So again, tell 'em, this is my name, this is where I'm at. I'm in the victim of a crime. You can find me at this location. We need medical assistance right away. And at that point, you can hang up. You can hang up. They're going to play the whole, Hey, stay on the phone with me. Stay on the phone with me. There's no reason to stay on the phone with them. You've given them the essential information that they need to respond with the services that they need to respond with at that point.
Keith Graves:
So we talked about this earlier. My favorite saying in the world, no good can come from talking to the police. Even if you are the police, you just got to shut up.
William Kirk:
Well, I can teach Miranda to all you guys in five seconds. Here's what it starts with. You have the right to remain silent and the rest of it's just whatever. That's all you need to know. Shut up. Shut up. Okay? Because what happens then, and this is where having the benefit of whether it's right to bear or that life vest that I talked about, I have had these situations where literally the person is in the back of a patrol car. As you know, you're going to secure the scene. You're probably going to cuff that person up, put 'em in the back of the patrol car. Let's see what we come up with because there's a good chance we might kick him loose. But if we don't, we already got him in custody here.
Keith Graves:
I've had scenes where I roll up and I know the bad man. He's a horrible person. I know that. And I see this totally clean cut, good guy. I know what happened.
William Kirk:
Yeah,
Keith Graves:
But I have to sort it out.
William Kirk:
You got to sort it out. Your world is dictated by evidence just like mine
Keith Graves:
Is. Exactly. And if you have a good cop who's going to come and say, okay, I just got to detain you for a little while.
William Kirk:
Yeah,
Keith Graves:
Keep your mouth shut.
William Kirk:
Yeah, keep
Keith Graves:
Your, put him in the car. Don't freak out in the car.
William Kirk:
Yeah,
Keith Graves:
Right. I've been stuffed in the car before. It's uncomfortable. It happens. And then the bad guy's going to get treated or whatever, and then they're going to let all the witnesses talk for you if there are any. Hopefully there are some, right? They'll talk for you and then they'll come talk to you later. Make sure you have an attorney with you.
William Kirk:
Absolutely. I had a shooting took place. My guy went to a late night diner called 13 Coins, which is in Seattle. That's where all the drunks go when the bars close. And he went there just to get a late night dinner and he's sitting in a booth and a gunfight breaks out in the booth next to him and he's like, I'm clearing out. As he's clearing out, he basically runs into one of these guys who's the shooter, and they kind of get into it a little bit and he raises a gun. And so he pops 'em off. He pops a couple through 'em. I get a call from him and it's always this, you get this 2:00 AM phone call and I always have that, is this really an emergency? Sometimes it's like, well, I don't know. I left my gun in the men's room or something.
William Kirk:
I was like, well, all right. But he's like, yeah, I think this is a real emergency. I was like, oh yeah, why is that? He goes, well, I just shot someone. I was like, right. It's a real emergency, right? Well, this took place at a restaurant inside a restaurant. And so I could hear these guys talking in the background. I'm like, who's in the background? He's like, it's a bunch of Seattle police and a detective. I was like, put the detective on the phone. So I got to talk to the detective and I could tell right away that the detective was kind of in the opinion, I don't think your guy's in a lot of hot water. But I just asked the detective, I said, Hey, look up real quick and tell me how many cameras you see there. And he goes, yeah, there's a bunch of 'em.
William Kirk:
I was like, well then why don't you just go get the film and call me back after you watched it? I got a call back 35 minutes later from my guy. He is on his way home at the film. But that's the benefit of having that attorney who can be detached from the emotion, detached from the scene, know how to, because there's a right way and a wrong way to talk to law enforcement. And it always amazes me how many defense attorneys haven't figured that out yet. That you don't big. You don't big time. No, absolutely not. In fact, the best thing often talking to a law enforcement officer the other day about a red flag hearing, and the guy happened to follow the channel, and I told him, I was like, Hey, I don't want to take money from people unless I can help 'em tell me what's really going on here. And we just had a simple normal conversation like two humans. Because shockingly cops are human
Keith Graves:
Beings, right? Yeah, they are.
William Kirk:
And you can talk to 'em and a lot of times they'll open up and they'll tell you like, Hey, I really think you guys probably in the right here. Okay, well, I want you to understand. I'm not going to have to say anything to you. You understand Why? Are there times where I've taken people back down to the department later on? Yeah, sure. Tough times. It's the right thing to do. Other times it's like, but here's the deal. I got to like 100% of the story if I only like 80% of the story. The problem is you sit down with the detective and about two seconds, they figure out 20%, you're not telling 'em, and they're going to go right there. They are trained in what they do. So I got to like 100% of the story before we're going to sit down and talk
Keith Graves:
To somebody. And when you talk to your attorney, make sure you tell 'em the whole story, even if it's embarrassing, even if, I mean some people are doing some very bad things. Might've been with, it sounds silly, but been with a
William Kirk:
Prostitute. Oh yeah.
Keith Graves:
Could have been smoking weed or doing whatever.
William Kirk:
You got another woman in the car that's not Mrs. So-and-so that kind of stuff happens.
Keith Graves:
We talked about one earlier where it was an off-duty police officer that was intoxicated. It was attacked by a gang member that tried to rob him.
William Kirk:
You had a background with him. I remember this story.
Keith Graves:
You knew this person and I knew him and the minute I rolled up, I knew I got this decorated gang detective and I got this gang member that I know has probably killed somebody before, but we couldn't prove it. And he's dying right there. And it's like I know exactly what happened. And the whole thing is just make sure you tell the truth. Yes, I've been drinking, yes, I'm drunk. I think I'm drunk to your attorney, not to the cops, but say it to your attorney so he can best protect you. Right?
William Kirk:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think the other thing that people need to understand then is that's what you've done before law enforcement gets there. Now we got to talk also about what happens when law enforcement gets there. And so the first thing is when law enforcement gets there, understand they may be relying on information that is inaccurate, but that's what's been reported to 'em, and they're going to take it at face value. The first thing they have to do is disarm you. And every department has a very particular way of disarming a person and it may be tantamount to a formal arrest. Do not resist obstruct, hinder, delay, play games, anything. It is a great way to get yourself shot. In my hypothetical, I'd always said put the firearm back in the holster in the exact condition it was in. I carry right appendix in my situation. I would walk up to a law enforcement officer with my hands above my head like here, and I'd be like, Hey, I'm the one that called 9 1 1. First question they're going to ask me is, are you armed? And I'm going to be like, yeah, it's right down here, right appendix not going to go down there and read. Yay. Check it out. Right?
Keith Graves:
Here it is.
William Kirk:
Yeah, here it's right. Not going to do any of that. And at that point, they're going to start ordering me to maybe get on the ground, get on my knees, lay down, whatever. You just got to play along. Play along, okay. Again, if you really had a righteous shot, you've got nothing to hide. There's no reason to be obstructing law enforcement. Let them get you disarmed.
Keith Graves:
You'll be fine.
William Kirk:
Yeah. At that point, they're going to take you into quasi custody. They're going to detain you. It could be tantamount to an arrest. Why? They try to figure things out. There's always, pardon me here, but there's always that good cop that's going to come by and like, Hey Keith, I'm talking to the boys and we've got a couple witnesses over there and we kind of think this is probably a pretty good shot. Hey, why don't you just fill out a written statement for me here real quick and we'll maybe get you home.
Keith Graves:
Yep. There's more than one that will do that.
William Kirk:
Yeah. And as tempting as it is, as inviting as it is, don't do it. Don't do it at all. Might you be arrested? Yeah, you might be arrested and taken into custody. Again, if you got an attorney on speed dial, they can make arrangements for bail and things like that. A lot of times people can only be held up to about 72 hours. And if 72 hours I've had guys help for 72 hours, then the prosecutor's like, I don't know. I think we got a pretty good self-defense claim here. They get sprung loose.
Keith Graves:
So my recommendation to you guys too is look, if you're in Washington, obviously call over here, Northern California, call Mike Rains out of San Francisco Bay area. But then the next question is who do I call for an attorney? What I recommend people do is call their local FOP Fraternal Order of police.
William Kirk:
Who
Keith Graves:
Do you guys use as an attorney? Because I guarantee you they did all the homework
William Kirk:
On
Keith Graves:
Who they were going to call.
William Kirk:
Right? The best recommendation you can ever get for a defense attorney is the one the police give. Because if a police officer is giving a recommendation of an attorney, not only do they recognize that they're incredibly effective at what they do, but they do it in a manner with an attitude that makes it acceptable to law enforcement as well. Because when I used to teach young lawyers, they all think that the trick is you go in there and you strap a detonator to the witness and you blow 'em up and you're like, whoa, look what I did. And it's like, well, that's great, except you didn't get any evidence. And I'd much rather sit down, Hey officer, how you doing today? You and I have a little conversation. I'm going to be cool if you give me everything I can get out of you. Hey, I'll get you out of here in 10 minutes.
Keith Graves:
So you were a DUI lawyer? I was at one point. So I was a DRE instructor.
William Kirk:
A DRE instructor. Yeah.
Keith Graves:
Okay. So I got to tell you, I knew the exact lawyer I would call if family or friend was arrested for DUI
William Kirk:
In the I knew,
Keith Graves:
Oh, I knew exactly the guy I was going to call. Right? Who was it? Newan, Jack Newan man, Jack Newan. I tell you, Jack and Jack, I hope you're watching. I know his son's a cop now too or son a cop, right? That's awesome. But Jack was like hilarious. He knew everybody knew every county clerk. He can look at it and go, oh, the cop screwed up here. They're going to lose the case. Let's go to court. Right? Or it's, you're done. Let's take a wet reckless or something. Right? But you're right though. The cops actually know who all the good attorneys
William Kirk:
Are. They do know who the good ones are. And there's a difference between one that's effective but is kind of an a-hole about it versus the one that's effective and is a gentleman about it. That's the one that's always going to be referred by law enforcement. They're not going to send you out to some patsy that they've run over a hundred times. They're going to send you to a good lawyer or they're going to send you to a good lawyer who's also a good person. And that's important not only for the law boarders, but it's important for the experience that you have working with the lawyer too.
Keith Graves:
Yeah. I tell you, I'm so glad that we're talking. There's so much good stuff. Big question before we close all this out. This super big question. Carrying a gun in prohibited places. You got a church with a school and stuff like that. And so I just got into a, I was just talking to a gentleman. He's in California. The school's upstairs, we're downstairs. Doesn't matter, man. You're like building. You're right there. Well, how can I get around this? You're not. You're like, well, no, tell me what law law's right here, penal code. Well, I think there's an out right here. There's not an out. You just can't do it. Laws
William Kirk:
To have an out.
Keith Graves:
And so I get tons of questions from viewers. How can I get around this? What does it really mean? Can you help them out a little bit?
William Kirk:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So first of all, I personally have zero issues with anyone carrying in a house. Abortion. I have zero issues with anyone carrying anywhere for that matter. There's a huge difference, however, in all states between gun free zones or sensitive places, and then areas that private businesses just say no firearms allowed. So for example, the grocery store that I frequent all the time in Washington State, they have a no firearms policy. I don't really care. I don't care. Because the worst they're going to do, well, first of all, if they ever find out that I actually had a firearm, they'll be thankful that I had it. The only reason they would know it. But all they could do is trespass me from their story. You're not welcome to come back to Safeway. Ever Go, great. I'll go down street to qfc, whatever. So I don't have a problem with people who don't follow the suggestive behavioral norms, gun-free zones and sensitive places, though have effective legislature. And I preach on my channel all the time, lawful and responsible gun ownership. So you're not going to hear me say, ah, the heck with the law, just do it anyways. I'll never say that. Power association might get a little unhappy. I did it
Keith Graves:
Too.
William Kirk:
So I don't know how many states is California. Are houses of worship considered to be gun-free zone?
Keith Graves:
Oh, there's a court case pending in the ninth
William Kirk:
Circuit. I can't even remember of a Death valley. Might be a gun free zone in California though.
Keith Graves:
Yeah. So they're actually fighting into court right now. So if you're in California, you can carry a gun if you have a CCW, but that court case is pending, I think they're going to lose. I think California's going to lose, and I think people will be able to carry it in house of worship. Gavin Newsom tried, failed. It's in the courts. We'll see what happens. But for right now, you're okay. Except for if you're in a church that has a school,
William Kirk:
Which a lot of these big community churches, non-denominational community churches have, and it might only be Bible school on Sunday, but that would count. But then they also have full-time K through 12, K through six in that facility. And that's an issue. We are running into Washington state right now too, because our statute, much like your statute prohibits firearms in any building at all that's used for educational services all the way through college. We have been able to work with some churches as far as being able to guard the parishioners on Sunday, but not being able to provide the same services for the kids during the week, which is really frustrating. My big deal is that if you take a look at Dr. John Lott Crime Prevention Research Center, you'll learn that 86% of all mass shootings occur in gun-free zones. 86%. Shocker. Shocker. Wonder how that happens? Why is that? And of course, well, it's the lack of armed resistance that you're going to get there. How any synagogue right now in our current culture that we're in in watch in the United States right now, how any synagogue wouldn't be armed to the hil? I don't know. I feel I'm very worried about them. And in general, when we have these nut jump, the Nashville shooter chose the target because they were Christian kids
William Kirk:
Chose that target because the first target had what? Security? Armed security. And so they went and chose the second target for that
Keith Graves:
Reason. And you can watch my breakdown or that shooting video up here,
William Kirk:
Do my little YouTube thing.
Keith Graves:
And you could watch the phenomenal job that the law enforcement officer did in Schwacking, that
William Kirk:
Person. Well, yeah. I mean, they got right to it. He did. He was the anti Uvalde experience.
Keith Graves:
Yeah. Oh man. Please. Alright. Soche it out though. That cop though. I just want just Al Tap for a minute. That cop, you could tell you, look at a setup. He had just a great setup that no department would ever pay for it, right? So his wife, all the cops in there know exactly what I'm talking about. He spent thousands of dollars on that setup and his wife was just finally like, there's no need to spend this money.
William Kirk:
You're never going to need this.
Keith Graves:
He came home that day and was like, yeah, baby, check it out. Look what did look right there. Did
William Kirk:
You read the news, sweetheart?
Keith Graves:
My favorite was can't put a price on safety.
William Kirk:
No, you can't
Keith Graves:
Though. And you can't. Right? And so the question that people are going to ask is, well, can I just carry anyways and whatever happens if I go to jail, I go to jail, whatever. And what I've always told people is like, if I stopped you, just keep your mouth shut. Don't tell me whatever, just let it go. But I never advocate to violate the law, but I know people are going to do it anyways, keep your mouth shut. Don't bring attention to yourself. And here's the thing, if something happens, you're going to be a hero or a zero. You either stop the mass shooting and you're the hero and everybody's going to be like, oh, sweep it under the carpet.
William Kirk:
Right? Yeah. He didn't care that he violated. Well, Elijah Dickens, Indiana. Indiana
Keith Graves:
Shooter,
William Kirk:
Right?
Keith Graves:
Yep. Yep. Okay.
William Kirk:
Alright. That mall had a no firearms policy. He ignored it. How many lives did he save that day? Because he ignored that policy.
Keith Graves:
So it's funny, you would think Idaho, there's no gun or it's a gun free zone, period. The Boise Mall had an active shooter a couple of years ago, and I remember walking into the mall and it always had the gun with the circle to
William Kirk:
It. Yeah. A little sign that's,
Keith Graves:
But it was the outline of a bread in 92 F with a circle. I'm like, I'm carrying a Glock, good for me. Carry some bread. I have anywhere. So that was always going to be my like, well, no, they just don't want bread in 92 F. Right? I complied. So I always ignored it, but I kept my mouth because the same thing we just said, what's the worst thing that's going to happen? Well, I get trespass, right?
William Kirk:
No,
Keith Graves:
I'm not worried about it. Don't want to go to this crappy mall anyways. Right.
William Kirk:
Well, and I firmly believe that every private business in America has the right to run their business however they want. And we as the American consumer also have the choice to decide whether or not we want to give 'em our money. Absolutely. And so I've done videos where like, Hey, here's all the anti Second amendment. And a lot of 'em are fast food joints, fast food, Starbucks and places like that. KBA Grill, stuff like that. Do I carry in all those places? Yes, I do because there's not a lot. But do I carry on to my kid's school?
Keith Graves:
Oh man. I'm
William Kirk:
You. Because there's a law that says I can't
Keith Graves:
Do that. You're going to get hammered
William Kirk:
Me. I'd love to get me in the cross.
Keith Graves:
But there are some das that are Rogan. We have one right now in Alameda County. I was just talking to a friend from that department. They're prosecuting a cop for a clearly self-defense shooting. We're talking like he was attacking people with baseball bats. He arrived on scene, tased the suspect. Suspect kept coming at the cops, swinging him with the baseball bat, shot him. They're charging him with murder and what they're hanging their head on. I
William Kirk:
Would love to defend that guy.
Keith Graves:
Oh, he's not going to get even in Alameda County as liberal as that place
William Kirk:
Because here's the deal under what you're telling me is this person attempted to use non-lethal
Keith Graves:
Force first and he withdrew first and he backed up. He was backing up as he was doing it.
William Kirk:
So he went through deescalation and non-lethal. And then finally he got pushed to the limit where it's like, I got to do this
Keith Graves:
Now. And so my thing is, if they're going to do it to us, they're going to do it to you.
William Kirk:
Oh yeah. Right. Absolutely. They are.
Keith Graves:
Who else? Trump said that anyways, I dig. Agree. That's true. So look, man, you got to be careful of that. Carrying a gun in a school is a retired law enforcement officer in Idaho. I'm prevented from carrying a gun on a school unless I have a law enforcement retiree id not the HR two 18, but an Idaho specific one. And so I remember going in to go get it and the guy's like, you have HR two 18, which allows me to carry in all 50 states. And I'm like, I know, but Idaho law prevents me unless I have this and get it every year and I can't carry on a school, my daughter's a school
William Kirk:
Teacher, I want to go bring her to lunch. I need the Idaho State legislature to fix that.
Keith Graves:
That's a great question. Idaho State legislature.
William Kirk:
Why Idaho? Seriously? You just passed constitutional carry. You just banned merchant codes. Right? You said you're not going to do business with any company that actually is anti Second Amendment. Fix this little thing up. This is a quick legislative fix, man. Oh, wait a minute. Two sentences in the statute and away you go.
Keith Graves:
Why are teachers in Idaho that have a CCW prohibited from carrying a gun to school?
William Kirk:
Oh yeah. Let's get, here's the thing. Here's the thing. Here's the, you want to talk about school shootings? Let's talk about 'em for a second. I've been very, very passionate about this. I've done a bunch of videos. So every time we get a school shooting, we get two schools of thought that come out. Okay? One is it's the mental health. It's the mental health. It's the mental health. The other side, it's the guns. It's the guns. It's the guns. Okay. Let's just assume both of those arguments, for the sake of our hypothetical here are true. Okay? It's the guns. How many hundreds of years are we away from rounding up all the guns? And there'd be a point at one point where only the outlaws will have the guns too, which is a point we don't want to
Keith Graves:
Get.
William Kirk:
So that solution, if you're right, is 200, 300 years away from solving. So what do we do in the meantime? We just let our kids get slaughtered. Then we go over here and we can say it's the mental health, which is what I tend to agree. I don't think sane people walk into schools and shoot it up. But if it's the mental health, how many decades are we away from being able to effectively not only treat it, but to predict it and prevent it?
Keith Graves:
Yep.
William Kirk:
Okay. So we got two solutions. And you're both talking a century away from solving it. Why don't we use the September 12th model? You know what I mean by the September 12th model, right? On September 11th, a bunch of people hijacked airplanes and flew 'em into buildings. As of September 12th, we locked down our airports to the point where no one is ever going to hijack a plane in the United States. And we did it with those morons working at TSA, right? I've always said, you can take 30 TSA agents, get rid of 'em, put five marines in the same the security checkpoint and everything's fine. But we guarded our airspace like the valuable commodity that it was.
Keith Graves:
Yes.
William Kirk:
Why don't we do that with our kids?
Keith Graves:
You know what we could do? We could take 80,000 IRS agents that were hired and go put 'em in the 80,000 schools that we have.
William Kirk:
Why don't we have secure ingress egress? Why don't we have plain clothes armed people on the campus all the time? They say that our children are our most valuable commodity that we have. It's probably true. Why don't we protect it like that?
Keith Graves:
Exactly.
William Kirk:
And to me, the September 12th model, then we can let the guns control people on the mental health people. You can debate that. And in the year 2040, we can, or 2,400 or whatever, we can maybe have another solution. But in the meantime, we've got to protect our kids. And the best way to protect our kids is to secure the schools. And that's a problem that can be solved next week.
Keith Graves:
Dude, Mr. Kirk, it was absolutely amazing to talk to you. I really, I love got to tell you it's to see your videos. I'm like, yeah, right on, right on. But actually to sit here and talk to you and have off camera talks and it's been wonderful, man. You're as genuine in person as you are.
William Kirk:
Online. Online. Thank you.
Keith Graves:
Thank you for protecting this Second Amendment. Thank you
William Kirk:
For protecting us. And listen, what these guys are doing, listen, every American has the right to practice whatever religion they want and they have the right to practice it with as much peace and sanctity as humanity will allow 'em. I applaud you guys for what you're doing.
Keith Graves:
Thank you.
William Kirk:
Because the second amendment is for everybody and it's meant to protect everybody and every bit of ideals and belief systems. So I don't care what religion you practice, you absolutely positively have the right to do it with as much peace and sanctity as there is humanly possible. And it's organizations like you that are making that possible. So good on you guys.
Keith Graves:
Thank you sir. I appreciate that. Alright. Hopefully we'll have you back maybe next year shot show
William Kirk:
Again. Let's do it. Yeah. Thank you brother. Thank you. Appreciate it. I
Keith Graves:
Appreciate it.
William Kirk:
Thank you.
Credit: Christian Warrior Training and Washington Gun Law